Post: #11

50+ and after taking Zinc + Boron you can feel a difference in the way you carry it which leads me to believe in conjunction to the studies that my Test is boosting.

However I do prefer scientific evidence so in the past year I have has 2x saliva hormone tests taken as part of an inquiry into HRT and my results came back so screwed up (re: 30 year old healthy male) Dr suggested I do a 2nd test. Now while I believe and studies show that Zinc + Boron increase free testosterone I believe the actual biggest bag for the buck product you can purchase over the counter is topical progesterone (I use life-flo) that in and of itself has stopped estrogen dominance in my case and has greatly helped to restore balance. On top of that I generally alternate days with this and a DIMM supplement to keep my Est overall as low as possible.

Post: #12

(01-29-2018 12:40 PM)cpwhite Wrote:  50+ and after taking Zinc + Boron ......... and a DIMM supplement to keep my Est overall as low as possible.

Good on the zinc, but the boron is a double edged sword. It does raise test in the short run, but it also raises estrogens, too. If low on saliva tests and/or blood tests, DHEA and (DHEAS) may be a consideration. However, it can metabolize into both test and est and we can't control which one and how much. Our bodies decide. Years ago in the US, test precursors like Androstenedione were available OTC from supplement stores and these could be useful.

Rather than oral supplements which have to go through the liver via first pass, many of these were also sold as a transdermal gel which avoided that burden. The oral supplements also had the limitation of being short lived. The transdermals avoided taxing the liver and they would prolong the raise in testosterone much like a slow IV drip. One could boost one's test level to the upper high mark within 72 hours and it would stay fixed there as long as one applied to various thin skin areas on a rotating basis so as to avoid over saturation. Of course, a hormone holiday could be done once a month to also guard against over saturation e.g. taking a break from application one weekend a month. So, it's good that you are using a TD cream/gel for your progest supplementation to oppose Est.

Unfortunately nowadays, the test precursor creams have been banned. One can only get either them or even direct test gel/cream via prescription.

Short of getting a prescription aromatase inhibitor, the DIM (metabolite of Indole 3 Carbinol, found in crucifer vegetables e.g., broccoli) is actually a good idea. It not only clears/antagonizes estradiol (making it a less potent form which acts like an antioxidant) it helps free testosterone which may be bound by sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). The SHBG tends to increase with age. Just don't take it with caffeine as it competes with the same enzymes that deal with caffeine. Taking them together can make you more alert/nervous than normal.

Of course, one would also seek to minimize excess adipose tissue (body fat) which can also convert test to est via aromatase.

Post: #13

(01-29-2018 1:12 PM)TheManInTheFedora Wrote:  Good on the zinc, but the boron is a double edged sword. It does raise test in the short run, but it also raises estrogens, too. If low on saliva tests and/or blood tests, DHEA and (DHEAS) may be a consideration. However, it can metabolize into both test and est and we can't control which one and how much. Our bodies decide. Years ago in the US, test precursors like Androstenedione were available OTC from supplement stores and these could be useful.

Rather than oral supplements which have to go through the liver via first pass, many of these were also sold as a transdermal gel which avoided that burden. The oral supplements also had the limitation of being short lived. The transdermals avoided taxing the liver and they would prolong the raise in testosterone much like a slow IV drip. One could boost one's test level to the upper high mark within 72 hours and it would stay fixed there as long as one applied to various thin skin areas on a rotating basis so as to avoid over saturation. Of course, a hormone holiday could be done once a month to also guard against over saturation e.g. taking a break from application one weekend a month. So, it's good that you are using a TD cream/gel for your progest supplementation to oppose Est.

Unfortunately nowadays, the test precursor creams have been banned. One can only get either them or even direct test gel/cream via prescription.

Short of getting a prescription aromatase inhibitor, the DIM (metabolite of Indole 3 Carbinol, found in crucifer vegetables e.g., broccoli) is actually a good idea. It not only clears/antagonizes estradiol (making it a less potent form which acts like an antioxidant) it helps free testosterone which may be bound by sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG). The SHBG tends to increase with age. Just don't take it with caffeine as it competes with the same enzymes that deal with caffeine. Taking them together can make you more alert/nervous than normal.

Of course, one would also seek to minimize excess adipose tissue (body fat) which can also convert test to est via aromatase.

Thanks Fedora, lots of good stuff to unpack there! Alas, I miss the transdermal days of the early 2000's but mostly for the transdermal application of 4AD which of course was awesomeness in powder form.

I believe the Progesterone and DIMM are keeping the Est in check and while the T levels are perfect they arent in the basement and enough to get me by without doing prescription HRT.

Post: #14

(01-29-2018 12:40 PM)cpwhite Wrote:  50+ and after taking Zinc + Boron you can feel a difference in the way you carry it which leads me to believe in conjunction to the studies that my Test is boosting.

However I do prefer scientific evidence so in the past year I have has 2x saliva hormone tests taken as part of an inquiry into HRT and my results came back so screwed up (re: 30 year old healthy male) Dr suggested I do a 2nd test. Now while I believe and studies show that Zinc + Boron increase free testosterone I believe the actual biggest bag for the buck product you can purchase over the counter is topical progesterone (I use life-flo) that in and of itself has stopped estrogen dominance in my case and has greatly helped to restore balance. On top of that I generally alternate days with this and a DIMM supplement to keep my Est overall as low as possible.

Hey, CP ... is that the Life-Flo Progesta-Care with Natural Progesterone Body Cream for Women?

If so, how long have you been using it, and do you have a favorite application spot, or are you changing spots as directed?

Any other MANLY MEN out there experimenting with Progeterone Body Cream to control estrogen?

Mucho thanks!!!

For those who are reading up on the subject:

Post: #15

Hi MMM, yes that is exactly the stuff; finishing my 2nd bottle up here soon (8 mo of usage) and It's working great for me.

About half a pump every other day applied directly to the scrotum does the trick according to the hormone tests I've taken in 2017. If you have a hormone baseline now try it out and check after you finish a bottle, I suspect you will see a significant difference. More information can be found online and this particular Dr seems to really know his stuff -

Post: #16

I am only using pomegranate to boost my testosterone level.



Conclusions: This study shows that consumption of pomegranate pure juice has significantly increased salivary testosterone levels (average of 24%) in addition to effects on blood pressure, mood and the positive scores of anxiety and emotions in a large group of workers from different disciplines.

24%.....with a side effects free food which also have so much more positive effects on the body. There are ton of studys about the positive effects of pomegranate. For me it works.

Post: #17

(02-03-2018 7:10 AM)Hannibal Wrote:  I am only using pomegranate to boost my testosterone level.

Yes, I remember that at least one listmate mentioned this last year or so. Good info.

The study failed to specifically mention the amount of juice consumed by the volunteers; they only mentioned the brand namely pomegreat.

Hannibal, how much of the juice do you drink and how often? Can you mention the brand? Is it pure pomegranate or a mix? Other listmates who use pomegranate, please chime in on this.


I looked at Pomegreat's webpage and it says that their juice product is actually a mixture of pomegranate and aronia (chokeberry). Somehow, I feel that they should have used pure pomegranate to avoid uncertainty.



Aronia or chokeberry is also a very healthy fruit being very high on the ORAC (Oxygen Radical Absorbance Capacity) units, a unit of measurement for antioxidant content.



Here's a nice list of ORAC values for fruits, supplements and herbs. Interestingly, Astaxanthin is also listed which we know is the key ingredient of Swoon. Interesting that it helps with ADHD.

Post: #18

ORAC has little bearing on health effects. Re- and oxidation are both necessary mechanisms in different contextes. Too much antioxidants will exceed the hormetic needs of a reasonably healthy individula very quickly.

And regarding Paradox' naming of the thread-title. No, estrogens won't turn you into a woman. Estrogens are not female hormones per definition. Females have relatively more Estrogen-derived steroids than males, but that's it.
Estrogens are growth-promoting stress hormones that are needed for a range of physiological functions in a very narrow frame and context. Too much of them are very detrimental to good health for both men and women. If you don't understand the role of these class of steroids in the human organism there is no chance to understand how pheromones work in a scientific way.

Post: #19

(02-03-2018 11:10 AM)GoergeFocky Wrote:  Estrogens are growth-promoting stress hormones that are needed for a range of physiological functions in a very narrow frame and context.

Thanks for the insight. I also feel with the data being available that the isoflavones present in many foods are thought to be 1/500 the strength of full blown estradiol. Hence, these 'estrogen mimics' can actually bind and occupy cell receptor sites thereby preventing the full blown estrogens from binding/exerting their influence. This can be a good thing for males. I think that eating the occasional asian entree which has some soy sauce in it won't really impact/disrupt male hormonal makeup. With all things, I think the keyword is moderation or limitation. Soy has disadvantages towards thyroid function i.e., goitrogen.

The question that has puzzled researchers regarding estrogen in males - what is the function of estrogen in males? Whereas the hormone of libido in both sexes is testosterone, it is unclear what estrogen does for us males. Many years ago, I had read a scientific document that some hypothesize that it may be necessary for intelligence in males as well as spermatogenesis:



The above article also suggests that est may play some role in libido as well.

George, what do you think?

Post: #20

Everybody is worried about soy isoflavones, but the fact that air pollution often is slightly estrogenic is often overlooked. What about the water that we drink? Often, women on the pill are urinating out estrogens of all sorts and water treatment plants cannot filter out the estrogens from the water.

Another concern is the cow's milk that we drink to the meat that we eat...animals being injected with steroids also could have deleterious effects upon us.

Xenoestrogens are all over the place. Certain ones we can control like buying 'organic/natural raised' food products. Drinking safe water. Avoiding plastic containers. Avoiding isoflavone rich foods. But, breathing in air...not all have the luxury to move to some ideal place where the air is cleanest: