Post: #11

(11-22-2012 4:02 PM)seeusmile Wrote:  I got to get around these because im starting gym as well. Any good ones that you guys could recommend?

You should probably either start a new thread for that or, even better, find one which speaks to your interests. That way, threads don't wander too far off topic and serve as resources for everyone.

Post: #12

I don't want to derail this thread, and I'm too lazy to dig up studies, but I know most showed that Icariin did not boost serum testosterone levels in rats.

Icariin is a main MO is as a testosterone mimmetic, having similar properties.

PDE-5 inhibitors can boost testosterone through frequency of erections, and possibly sex too.

It is a wonderfull herb.

Grape Apes Supplement guide coming soon.

Post: #13

(11-22-2012 4:31 PM)Grape Ape Wrote:  Icariin is a main MO is as a testosterone mimmetic, having similar properties.

PDE-5 inhibitors can boost testosterone through frequency of erections, and possibly sex too.

I understand the words in the first sentence, except for "is a main MO." Did you mean "it's main modus operandi?"

Icariin does function as a PDE-5 inhibitor in addition to being a T mimetic which is how it interacts with NOS. It's kindof weird that it is a T mimetic, though, since it isn't anything like T structurally.

Post: #14

Yes, typing on my phone makes for plenty of errors.

Many things have similar effects of testosterone. Fenugreek(Testofen) and Anacyclus pyrethrum come to mind.

Essentially they just have simmar effects in the body as testosterone.

Post: #15

(11-22-2012 4:58 PM)Grape Ape Wrote:  Yes, typing on my phone makes for plenty of errors.

Many things have similar effects of testosterone. Fenugreek(Testofen) and Anacyclus pyrethrum come to mind.

Essentially they just have simmar effects in the body as testosterone.

Okay, I was trying to track down the chemical structure of testofen. It seems to be a proprietary mix rather than an actual individual chemical.

Quote:The aim of the clinical study was to evaluate the effect of Testofen, a standardized Trigonella foenum-graecum (Fenugreek) extract and mineral formulation, on male libido (sexual drive, urge or desire) in a double blind randomized placebo controlled study.

I'm not certain, but this study may be industry published.

I've seen lots of crazy molecules with estrogenic effects. Testosterone analogues which aren't themselves steroids seem rarer, though. I'm hard pressed to think of something offhand which is described that way and which is not a Testosterone-like steroid.

Tongkat ali, for example, seems to have some testosterone analogues and definite pheromonal activity from my own testing (including intimidation or aversion from females and mood elevation from myself.) Tongkat ali has several similar active ingredients. Check out their shape of eurycomalactone, which is one active component of tongkat ali extract and compare it to Testosterone.


Or


Generally that's how things seem to work out, IMHO, though I'd really welcome a contrary example. Stuff that acts like T seems to look like T (or boosts stuff that looks like T indirectly) so far as I can tell.

(p.s. I've totally been there on the phone typing issues.)

Post: #16

I have to be at work for Black Friday at 5am so I'm going make this short. I will try to find some studies to help further this convo sometime tomorrow.

As for Fenugreek it is a single molecule/ingredient. Testofen is just a 50% standardized extract. No priority blend.

Actually here is a link to Primordial Performance's Phyto-Testosterone. They should have some studies on the page.

Post: #17

(11-22-2012 9:20 PM)Grape Ape Wrote:  I have to be at work for Black Friday at 5am so I'm going make this short. I will try to find some studies to help further this convo sometime tomorrow.

As for Fenugreek it is a single molecule/ingredient. Testofen is just a 50% standardized extract. No priority blend.

Actually here is a link to Primordial Performance's Phyto-Testosterone. They should have some studies on the page.

Sorry to hear about the tough schedule. Good luck. I'm not sure what "it is a single molecule ingredient" means. That link just leads down another rabbit hole. It says Testofen is standardized to 50% "Fenuside." But this makes no sense, since "Fenuside" also isn't a real thing.

Quote:Fenuside is a set of potent saponin glycosides unique to us which we have standardised, ...Fenugreek contains Protodioscin, Pseudo Protodioscin, Gracillin, Protogracillin,

Diosgenin, Dioscin and many other saponins and sapogenins. Many of these other saponins are not identified yet. ...We have done repeated studies and confirmed it's libido promoting properties.

These guys are just giving people the runaround. There may be active ingredients in fenugreek that are anabolic if taken orally, but the makers of this product seem to know jack about what's beneficial and are using deceptive tactics to market their product. You don't standardize an extract to a proprietary mix of chemicals. I would seriously avoid any source that used such unethical tactics.

5-methyl-7-methoxy Isoflavone, which they list, does seem to be a real thing. Wikipedia seems to question its usefulness, but that's obviously not conclusive.

Quote:5-Methyl-7-methoxyisoflavone, commonly referred to simply as methoxyisoflavone, is a synthetic chemical compound marketed as a bodybuilding supplement. However, there is no clinical evidence to support its usefulness.[1] A study published in 2006 examined the affect of methoxyflavone on training adaptations and markers of muscle anabolism and catabolism. No measurable effects were observed in athletic performance or in levels of testosterone and cortisol.[2]

Here's a 2010 study listed on the site which studies "the furostanol glycosides fraction of Trigonella foenum-graecum (Fenu-FG)" on castrated rats and shows muscle increases in both the experimental group as well as T group....

Quote:Fenu-FG (35"‰mg/kg p.o.) showed anabolic activity without androgenic activity.

There seems to be some support for extracts of fenugreek (furostanol glycosides) being beneficial as T analogs. But the terms this company is using to market their extract are complete bullshit.

I don't know anything about furostanols offhand. But here's one of the first articles I've found on a search

A New Furostanol Glycoside from Tribulus terrestris


It shows a group that looks similar to a steroid bound to sugar groups by an easily hydrolyzed oxygen molecule (thus 'glycoside' ) and a similar sugar group on the opposite end. Exposure of this chemical to a strong acid (like stomach acid) would separate it into sugar and something that looks an awful lot like a typical steroid.

Here's a site talking about furostanols in Asparagus. It gives a chemical, sarsapogenin under the heading "steroidal compounds."



In conclusion; "Testofen" and "fenuside" seem to be proprietary nonsense words, so far as I can tell. If we're looking for androgenic compounds in fenugreek, we're looking for furostanols, steroids, androgens or similar.

I did find this, though;

icariin function improved erections in castrated rats


Castrated rats did not get erections from PPE inhibition alone ( via Zaprinast), which supports the notion that icariin may have have some kind of androgenic activity as you suggested in addition to PPE5 inhibition.
(1997)

Post: #18

(11-22-2012 10:32 AM)Grape Ape Wrote:  I don't understand why you guys believe that a supplement you ingest is having some kind of influence on those outside of you. Doesn't make semce, and there is no way you could convince me otherwise.

It is nice that pheromones can do this, bit I think you guys are reading way to far into it. Not everything everyone does is because some outside variable effected them to.

Icariin doesn't even have much of an impact on testosterone, so that window is out.

Grape,
If there is a correlation between Icariin and serum testosterone levels, then the pheromone reaction can be expected to be related to that. Since Saliva Testosterone levels are directly related to Serum Testosterone levels, and if its in the saliva you'll be spreading it if you exhale thru your mouth (not the nose). And since Saliva Testosterone has actual studies that say it's an aphrodisiac/pheromone.

if the other active ingredients in Epimedium/Epimedium Extract adjust your endogenous hormone levels, the same indirect type of process can have effects on your natural pheromone production. This can be true of anything you ingest that can have an indirect influence on your natural hormone/pheromone levels. All gets complicated don't it?

I just bought me some Horny Goat Weed/Epimedium and it only has 10% Icariin listed on the label.

Post: #19

Definitely going to try this

Post: #20

Going to test this out