Post: #11

Oh, I don't disagree that SOMEthing is going on. My point is that if Dianne has decided that she doesn't want to include -none (or Methoxyestratetraenone for that matter) in her products based on information she finds credible, she's well within her right. Further, a known and respected researcher in our midst shares a similar opinion which lends weight to it, imho. Note that in the quote above, James Kohl includes the caveat "Anecdotal evidence aside". Most of us have experienced androstenone effects, but I'm not going to slam Dianne or any other pheromone vendor who chooses to not include a certain component and offers a pretty reasonable explanation as to why.

I mean, I've made Aqua Vitae my staple phero at the moment, and androstenone is the heavy hitter in it. I never said it was ineffective, just pointing out that people we respect are saying the same thing Dianne said and got sniped at for.

Post: #12

(05-22-2010 2:29 AM)Data4 Wrote:  Oh, I don't disagree that SOMEthing is going on. My point is that if Dianne has decided that she doesn't want to include -none (or Methoxyestratetraenone for that matter) in her products based on information she finds credible, she's well within her right. Further, a known and respected researcher in our midst shares a similar opinion which lends weight to it, imho. Note that in the quote above, James Kohl includes the caveat "Anecdotal evidence aside". Most of us have experienced androstenone effects, but I'm not going to slam Dianne or any other pheromone vendor who chooses to not include a certain component and offers a pretty reasonable explanation as to why.

I mean, I've made Aqua Vitae my staple Pheromone at the moment, and androstenone is the heavy hitter in it. I never said it was ineffective, just pointing out that people we respect are saying the same thing Dianne said and got sniped at for.

Oh, yes definitely! It's just heartbreaking that there isn't any solid evidence as the other pheromones when it comes to -none, but as you mentioned my friend, it does something. I just wish that we also had more proof, but as long as it works for us why worry? If Diane doesn't want to sell it that's fine too! I bet her mixes are still kick ass without the -none. I still really want to try Down Girl.

Post: #13

No researcher I know has ever attempted to prove a negative (e.g., "prove it has no effect.") And no marketer I know has attempted to prove that androstenone has a positive effect. Given the research that showed androstenone was aversive to women and reports that it smells urinous, even the anecdotal information on its effectiveness is suspect. That's all the more reason for marketers to quit telling us it works, and design a study to show it works.

For example, some colleagues (including Martha McClintock) adapted our study design and attempted to show that androstadienone affected behavior. "Effects of androstadienone and menstrual cycle phase on flirting behavior in random couples" No affect on behavior was found, and this is a highly touted "human pheromone." Nevertheless, as with androstenone, I've never looked at it because there's no biologically based evidence to suggest it has any effect on hormones that would lead to its behavioral affect.

Perhaps that's the biggest difference between me, as a researcher with commercial interests, and others who have only commercial interests or who only have research interests. Whatever I use in my product line is supported by an abundance of data from research that fits data from studies of other animals (mostly mammals). If my products work, it's because there is evidence to suggest they should affect behavior.

Of course, I'm not using androstadienone, either. And Tisha is right, I've been posting on androstenone and androstadienone for as long as they've been mentioned on any of these forums. My insistence on a scientific approach is the reason I was banned from the Love-Scent forum.

But, each time I'm mentioned in any respected journalist's paper, and each time my work is cited by other researchers, we're all closer to learning more about how pheromones work and which pheromones work. You'll be hearing more about this in the next few months, I think, because I have three conference presentations scheduled: one at the annual gathering of Mensa, and two at the annual meeting of the International Society for Human Ethology.

Meanwhile, it may be pertinent to note recent research suggesting that, "...within persons favoring a male partner, a higher sensitivity to androstenone is related to some kind of approach behavior towards the source of the odor." Lübke, K., S. Schablitzky, et al. (2009). "Male Sexual Orientation Affects Sensitivity to Androstenone." Chemosensory Perception 2(3): 154-160.

Does this mean that androstenone attracts gay men (besides being aversive to women)? Or is this merely my subtle marketing ploy? Be careful out there! Many people aren't concerned with the research that could save them from some embarrassing situations, or merely make them better informed consumers.

James V. Kohl

(05-21-2010 6:03 PM)Tisha Wrote:  Data that has been around since 1993. Its pretty well known. JVKohl has never looked at Androstenone as a pheromone either from what I have read. I believe he was posting that way back in the Love Scent forum hayday.

However it does cause reactions from those exposed. Just because it has not been proven in a human study does not make it untrue. My anwser to that question is prove that its not, prove it has no effect.

Tisha

Post: #14

My interpretation is that all Diane is stating is that she searched and searched and couldn't find any research evidence that Androstenone is a human pheromone. I am pretty sure she's not saying Androstenone is snake oil (if that was the case, would she offer it at all?), I think she believes it can create a reaction, but her concern is the negative reactions. She doesn't want to create blends that give OD type reactions or any type of anxiety response at all. From my conversations with her, she never knocked any other company for using Androstenone in their blends.

I think she's simply trying to state what she's attempting to do with her own business.

Post: #15

(05-22-2010 9:12 AM)jvkohl Wrote:  No researcher I know has ever attempted to prove a negative (e.g., "prove it has no effect.") And no marketer I know has attempted to prove that androstenone has a positive effect. Given the research that showed androstenone was aversive to women and reports that it smells urinous, even the anecdotal information on its effectiveness is suspect. That's all the more reason for marketers to quit telling us it works, and design a study to show it works.

For example, some colleagues (including Martha McClintock) adapted our study design and attempted to show that androstadienone affected behavior. "Effects of androstadienone and menstrual cycle phase on flirting behavior in random couples" No affect on behavior was found, and this is a highly touted "human pheromone." Nevertheless, as with androstenone, I've never looked at it because there's no biologically based evidence to suggest it has any effect on hormones that would lead to its behavioral affect.

Perhaps that's the biggest difference between me, as a researcher with commercial interests, and others who have only commercial interests or who only have research interests. Whatever I use in my product line is supported by an abundance of data from research that fits data from studies of other animals (mostly mammals). If my products work, it's because there is evidence to suggest they should affect behavior.

Of course, I'm not using androstadienone, either. And Tisha is right, I've been posting on androstenone and androstadienone for as long as they've been mentioned on any of these forums. My insistence on a scientific approach is the reason I was banned from the Love-Scent forum.

But, each time I'm mentioned in any respected journalist's paper, and each time my work is cited by other researchers, we're all closer to learning more about how pheromones work and which pheromones work. You'll be hearing more about this in the next few months, I think, because I have three conference presentations scheduled: one at the annual gathering of Mensa, and two at the annual meeting of the International Society for Human Ethology.

Meanwhile, it may be pertinent to note recent research suggesting that, "...within persons favoring a male partner, a higher sensitivity to androstenone is related to some kind of approach behavior towards the source of the odor." Lübke, K., S. Schablitzky, et al. (2009). "Male Sexual Orientation Affects Sensitivity to Androstenone." Chemosensory Perception 2(3): 154-160.

Does this mean that androstenone attracts gay men (besides being aversive to women)? Or is this merely my subtle marketing ploy? Be careful out there! Many people aren't concerned with the research that could save them from some embarrassing situations, or merely make them better informed consumers.

James V. Kohl

Good luck on your research James, I'd really love to see you come out with more products as good as Scent of Eros . And you really seem to care about stuff that actually claim to work, so more products by you would be great I'm sure!

Post: #16

(05-22-2010 12:47 PM)Robby Wrote:  My interpretation is that all Diane is stating is that she searched and searched and couldn't find any research evidence that Androstenone is a human pheromone. I am pretty sure she's not saying Androstenone is snake oil (if that was the case, would she offer it at all?), I think she believes it can create a reaction, but her concern is the negative reactions. She doesn't want to create blends that give OD type reactions or any type of anxiety response at all. From my conversations with her, she never knocked any other company for using Androstenone in their blends.

I think she's simply trying to state what she's attempting to do with her own business.

If she is not comfortable working with those molecules she shouldn't. She has made a lot of great mixes without them from the reports. I am sure there are other companies that dont sell certain molecules for what ever reason. Look at AD they wont sell Androstadienone because they feel women are deliberately trying to depress men with it. Its a crock of shit but its there crock so who cares.

The fact is Androstenone has been used "as a pheromone" with success for a very long time by countless companies and users. Every user is not getting a placebo effect. Studies are great but they are not always right and not conducted in real world environments. I dont love Androstenone and Androstadienone does nothing for me but I have seen the effects on others who have used it without them even knowing they were wearing mones. I see the effect it has on my husband and I feel the effect it has on me. The urine smell, I dont get it and neither does anyone else I have had smell it. Frankly I cant stand the smell of Alpha Androstenol, it smells like dirty sweaty feet to me. Doesnt mean it doesnt have a effect though.


I would like to meet that 70% of women who find Androstenone repulsive though. Frankly it just shows the bull shit that goes around when people start competing. I havent meet one yet. AD did the same thing it ends up chasing more people off then bringing them in.


Tisha

Post: #17

I can't speak for Diane. I really don't know what her comfort level is on this stuff. I just related some things that I've heard from her in the past and I've already speculated way beyond my comfort level.

Post: #18

(05-22-2010 2:38 PM)mikotorocks714 Wrote:  Good luck on your research James, I'd really love to see you come out with more products as good as Scent of Eros . And you really seem to care about stuff that actually claim to work, so more products by you would be great I'm sure!

Thanks; it's taken much longer than I thought it would to prove that the formula for men influences women's behavior. Since we are still ahead of others in this regard, I hope to release a new product soon.

James V. Kohl

Post: #19

Telling someone to prove a negative to disprove opinion is a cop out, and I say this with all due respect, Tisha. It's a common tactic, particularly in the political arena, when there is no substance to an argument. For example, two people argue a point and neither one budges. Finally one of them throws out the atomic bomb: "Well, you're a racist! Prove me wrong!", and it's all over.

I get really uncomfortable with that sort of reasoning, because it's fruitless.

Post: #20

(05-22-2010 9:53 PM)Data4 Wrote:  Telling someone to prove a negative to disprove opinion is a cop out, and I say this with all due respect, Tisha.

And how is that ANY different from asking somebody to prove a positive?

An opinion is just that, one persons perception!

And opinions are like......well, I think you know the answer to that.