Post: #11

(07-10-2012 3:10 PM)dexter Wrote:  

A class of aliphatic acids was found in female rhesus monkeys that produced six types in the vaginal fluids. The combination of these acids is referred to as "copulins". One of the acids, acetic acid, was found in all of the sampled female's vaginal fluid. Even in humans one-third have all six types of copulins, which increase in quantity prior to ovulation. Copulins are used to signal ovulation; however, as human ovulation is concealed it is thought that they may be used for reasons other than sexual communication.

it looks like squalene and some other aliphatic acids (which 6 are in copulins again?).

squalene


caproic acid

Quote:One of the acids, acetic acid, was found in all of the sampled female's vaginal fluid.

Acetic acid is just vinegar, though. I'd be curious whether low doses of vinegar had any kind of aphrodesiac effect on virgin males. What if that part was omitted from a copulin mix? Are there any tests to demonstrate the effect of such subtractions? I've never played with copulins so I could be way off base here, but it seems like some of these compounds being referenced developed as anti-bacterial compounds. In short, as far as copulins are concerned are we dealing with innate pharmacological effects or learned associations?

Post: #12

ok wiserd,
sorry for the long post, sort-of, but not really. I think we think alike in alot of ways, but I was looking to show some link between the long chain acid [9,10-methyleneoctadecanoic acid] above, and copulins. The content wanders though.

here is a really stupid web site on copulins, it cracks me up that the theory here is that the female will inject upto 100mL/hour of copulins into the male genitalia during sex, then the male hypothalimus will alter his brain so he will become a brainwashed slave and do her bidding. Seems like they missed some stuff, like reality. But, needed to link to it in case wiserd had a half hour to waste.



Myocardial Damage: Early Detection by Novel Biochemical Markers By Juan Carlos Kaski, David W. Holt pgs 323-327
says copulins are Aliphatic Acids C2 thru C5. but which ones, are they just straight chains with the acid on the end?

from 1976

Quote:Am J Obstet Gynecol. 1976 Sep 1;126(1):129-36.
Volatile constituents of human vaginal secretions.
Huggins GR, Preti G.
Abstract
Vaginal secretions were serially studied for 44 ovulatory cycles from 12 patients by means of combined gas chromatograph--mass spectrometry to identify small organic volatile compounds. In 10 of these cycles ovulation was documented with plasma radoioimmunoassays for progesterone, estrogens, and LH. These secretions contain a complex mixture of acids, alcohols, hydroxyketones, and aromatic compounds. Lactic acid, acetic acid, and urea were found to be present in all patients and underwent sharp cyclical variations in concentration with maxima in all patients occurring at midcycle. Small-chain, volatile C2-C5 aliphatic acids which have been shown to induce mating behavior in male rhesus monkeys were found in only four patients. In these patients the above acids were found predominantly at midcycle and during the luteal phase.

PMID: 961738 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

a neat one with lots of molecules, but not specifically pheromone research


wiserd, check out pg 298 of Pheromones and Animal Behaviour: Communication by Smell and Taste By Tristram D. Wyatt
it has civetone, muscone, and exaltolide ( I have some exaltolide i think) Androstadienone , Alpha Androstenol, Beta Androstenol, None, Androstadienol showing up, but check out this link.

It mentions volatile C6-C12 straight, branched, unsaturated aliphatic acids. Not as long as the 18-chain but... many non-steroid pheromones look just like it, and get airborne pretty well.

TMHA is an interesting outlier as well (trans-3-methyl-2-hexenoic acid (TMHA)).
looks a little like the before mentioned long chain acid [9,10-methyleneoctadecanoic acid] above. a backbone of 6 Carbons with one C branching off in the middle.

(E)-3-Methyl-2-hexenoic acid [(trans-3-methyl-2-hexenoic acid (TMHA)]
Formula: C7H12O2
CAS#: 35205-70-0
MW: 128.17

link to good TMHA 3D visualization.
of course the fact that it is used by the African malaria mosquito to find meals ain't that good if it worked as a pheromone and you wore it in the swamp or woods, you could get eaten alive by mosquitos, if you were in africa.
and of course, it's stench, this means it's really likely, as musks are very, well, stinky.

Quote:As many as 30 chemical components of body odor have been identified. The hallmark chemical, according to Old Spice sweat expert Jay Gooch, is 3-methyl-2-hexenoic acid. "That's the one that, if you put it in a jar, you'd smell it and say, 'Ooh, that's B.O.,' " he says.

Post: #13

Nice. I'll try to get ahold of some muscone and civetone then, and test them out.... I wonder what they'll do.Very good text, btw.

Post: #14

Reading through that text you posted I realized that muscone and civetone are capable of assuming the conformation of the other androstanes, but that they don't have to... without the to-5, 9-8 and 13-14 bonds that divide normal androstanes up into small 'polycyclic' molecules muscone and civetone can take a huge variety of shapes... I wonder if they'll have a more wide ranging effect (both activating more receptors and also working at a greater distance) because of that?

It certainly seems to have a weaker effect. 1 ml of perfume requires about 333mcg of civetone.

Quote:this scent doesn't seem to last long on my skin. I expected a lot better from this scent especially because it belongs to the era of the powerhouse fragrances. The projection and silage is almost non existent after 2 hrs of application. It stays really close to the skin after few hours and you need to really sniff your skin to find its traces.

Considering that civetone seems to be prominent in CK's Obsession for Men we have a ton of feedback on the effects of civetone to work with. But people still describe the stuff like a perfume rather than a pheromone, in all the reviews I can find.

Quote:According to the Wall Street Journal, big cats of all sorts love the smell of Calvin Klein's Obsession for Men. This odd fact was first discovered by Pat Thomas, general curator for the Wildlife Conservation Society's Bronx Zoo in New York. Zoos often spritz various scents around an animal's enclosure to keep the animal stimulated and curious. Thomas decided to observe how two cheetahs would react to 24 different colognes. There was a wide range of reactions: "Estée Lauder's Beautiful occupied the cheetahs on average for just two seconds. Revlon's Charlie managed 15.5 seconds. Nina Ricci's L'Air du Temps took it up to 10.4 minutes. But the musky Obsession for Men triumphed: 11.1 minutes."

Why are big cats so taken with this particular Calvin Klein fragrance? It's probably the civetone.
...
, "jaguars cannot resist the smell of Calvin Klein cologne, specifically Obsession" and they "seek out the fragrance from miles away."

Quote:I was reading a book about Henry VIII and came upon some of the perfumes that Katherine Parr, Henry's 6th wife preferred. Juniper and civet was the combination that she liked most in her private chamber.

Considering these guys aren't near the jaguars to begin with, that suggests the stuff has a pretty remarkable throw. At least for someone flirting with large, muscular cats. We gotta see if any of the ladies on this board had a thing for Lion-o while growing up.

In any case, I bought some civetone from perfumers apprentice (no idea what's in that mix) and muscone. I'll probably use it in a much smaller concentration than 333mcg/ml. We'll see what happens.

Post: #15

I got my muscone and civetone today from perfumer's apprentice... smelled both and got a smile on my face.... I do think that these things are putatives. Whether they're just weaker varieties of androstenone or something like that remains to be seen. They do seem considerably weaker than other pheromones in terms of tolerable dosage.

... I'm garbage at mixing scents, though I understand the basic technical aspects. I can't smell most mones, so I'm really going to have to go by other people's reactions. Civetone and muscone are supposed to be good bases/fixatives. One old mix I found consisted of adding juniper to the mix...l wonder if juniper would make a good general, natural Androstenone cover.

Interesting report there on a similar macrocyclic, cosmone;

My Mysterious Mania for Macrocyclic Musks



As a side note, while New Directions Aromatics has synthetic stuff that smells nice I get a bad reaction from all of it, I think. Urgh. I'm not sure what to do about that. Return all the stuff I ordered?

Post: #16

The muscone from perfumer's apprentice is mixed with 50%

Sounds like the stuff could increase skin absorption.

Quote:Isopropyl myristate is used in cosmetic and topical medicinal preparations where good absorption through the skin is desired. It is also used as a pesticide-free treatment against head lice which works by dissolving the wax that covers the exoskeleton of head lice, killing them by dehydration.

Post: #17

hmm,
I just read a post by SteveO saying that he thought that the Cleary Sage scent was a key to the Spaceland. I'll have to try some out, cleary sage, since spaceland isn't for sale. I wonder if it was just a great Alpha Androstenol diffusion helper, or absorption helper since you mentioned the skin absorptions.

I don't think you have to worry too much about skin absorption since if you mix it at 1mg/30mL it is about 5mcg(2.5mcg muscone, 2.5mcg myristate)/spray. My scale will go down to .0001g, but .001g=1mg and that is still really small. So say 20mg/30mL gets you to 100mcg(2.5mcg muscone, 2.5mcg myristate)/spray. You still only have 50mcg/spray of Myristate and who knows if it is still clinging to the Muscone or if it drifts off on its own seperately in the solvent. I think it will dissolve freely from the Muscone, if your solvent will dissolve Myristate, I'm not remembering right now what does.

I liked your thought about Muscone and Civetone having the large open chain structure, and that it contributes to their multiple shapes. It may be a really good thing if it hits your nose, and doesn't do anything, then changes and gets a reaction. It could have 3 or more tries to get the signal across, or the signals could be different depending on the isomer. But it could be a more productive molecule as you get a 3for1 bonus. But if there are 3 different signals, are they all sexual? I'm basing that on how it's a sex pheromone for cats.

I don't know how many times smelling a cat's anus has had an effect on me, I'm hoping it is 0. But our cat is fixed, I wonder if they do something for the musk with that fixing, like de-musk-glanding ferrets. Or maybe my cat is so different from a Civet cat that they don't do that.

I read the link you posted, , and I think I'll give Cosmone a whirl, as I have it in a little jar like the others I got from perfumers apprentice.

Post: #18

(07-18-2012 6:22 PM)dexter Wrote:  hmm,
I just read a post by SteveO saying that he thought that the Cleary Sage scent was a key to the Spaceland. I'll have to try some out, cleary sage, since spaceland isn't for sale. I wonder if it was just a great Alpha Androstenol diffusion helper, or absorption helper since you mentioned the skin absorptions.

I don't think you have to worry too much about skin absorption since if you mix it at 1mg/30mL it is about 5mcg(2.5mcg muscone, 2.5mcg myristate)/spray. My scale will go down to .0001g, but .001g=1mg and that is still really small. So say 20mg/30mL gets you to 100mcg(2.5mcg muscone, 2.5mcg myristate)/spray. You still only have 50mcg/spray of Myristate and who knows if it is still clinging to the Muscone or if it drifts off on its own seperately in the solvent. I think it will dissolve freely from the Muscone, if your solvent will dissolve Myristate, I'm not remembering right now what does.

I liked your thought about Muscone and Civetone having the large open chain structure, and that it contributes to their multiple shapes. It may be a really good thing if it hits your nose, and doesn't do anything, then changes and gets a reaction. It could have 3 or more tries to get the signal across, or the signals could be different depending on the isomer. But it could be a more productive molecule as you get a 3for1 bonus. But if there are 3 different signals, are they all sexual? I'm basing that on how it's a sex pheromone for cats.

I don't know how many times smelling a cat's anus has had an effect on me, I'm hoping it is 0. But our cat is fixed, I wonder if they do something for the musk with that fixing, like de-musk-glanding ferrets. Or maybe my cat is so different from a Civet cat that they don't do that.

I read the link you posted, , and I think I'll give Cosmone a whirl, as I have it in a little jar like the others I got from perfumers apprentice.

Any feedback on the musks? I haven't had time for testing. I'm not sure what the different signals would be but musks are generally described as 'warming' and 'animalistic' by perfumers for whatever that's worth.

I haven't dug into cleary sage yet, but sage has thujone in it. That's one psychotropic ingredient that comes to mind. The stuff is light enough to fly, as well. Thujone is the stuff in absinthe. I remember reading the toxicity profile on thujone a long while back. There are no immediate harmful effects up to a point when *boom* the mortality curve skyrockets largely irrespective of body weight. Exact mechanism isn't known, but that curve would match some important chemical in the brain being exhausted.

Sage sounds like a nice scent. I wonder how thujone would work as a pheromone. I'd played with the concentrated stuff back in college, testing it as a fungicide, but I wasn't as observant as I should have been.

... hm... here's one site suggesting that cleary sage has significantly LESS thujone than normal sage.

Okay, if true that kills that hypothesis.

Post: #19

I've been playing around with civetone a lot. I'm not sure if it's the civetone at work, but it (or something I'm using) seems to have an amazing day-after effect. (or maybe it needs several days, I don't know.)

... I've never tried leCroy buildup routine, so I can't compare.

Downside is that my shoulders get tense like they do on a heavy dose of some alpha mone.

Day-of civetone feels like a mix of nols and very low dose Androstenone, with a much better throw. It's anyone's call whether dissociating the effect from oneself that much is a good thing... at the very least you might be able to see who is influenced by it. Maybe those women who respond would also be in that part of their cycle where they respond to Androstenone and other mones better?

Post: #20

(09-20-2012 8:50 PM)wiserd Wrote:  I've been playing around with civetone a lot. I'm not sure if it's the civetone at work, but it (or something I'm using) seems to have an amazing day-after effect. (or maybe it needs several days, I don't know.)

... I've never tried leCroy buildup routine, so I can't compare.

Downside is that my shoulders get tense like they do on a heavy dose of some alpha mone.

Day-of civetone feels like a mix of nols and very low dose Androstenone, with a much better throw. It's anyone's call whether dissociating the effect from oneself that much is a good thing... at the very least you might be able to see who is influenced by it. Maybe those women who respond would also be in that part of their cycle where they respond to Androstenone and other mones better?

How much Civetone did you apply ?
What other things did you have in the mix ?