Post: #1

I debated whether to start this thread, and to be honest, I put it off for quite some time, but ultimately, I think this is something that needs to be done.

Now, while I'm well aware of nearly every incident in which Chris has been warned or banned, I still think he's a vital enough members of this community that he deserves yet another chance. It must be said that the final decision rests on Mark, and that this thread is mainly, if not exclusively for the sake of generating interest in bringing Chris back to the forum.

What finally pushed my decision was seeing the arrogance, once again, from Androtics, probably the leading company when it comes to single molecule research. Though I'm rarely a spiteful person, I'd love to see them fail as a business, and at this point A314 is one of the few things they have going for them.

Restarting a blind molecule testing program is the way to go about this. Not only will the testing of newer, more novel molecules expand the general knowledge of the pheromone community, but the more molecules we test, the less relevant Androtics' putatives become.

While most are interested in blind molecule testing solely for the sake of research, personal development, or general interest, I have an additional interest in decoding every last one of the putatives. I'm convinced that there's a general pattern in the lattermost digit of the putatives, and this hypothesis has been mentioned numerous times before. If we can discover at least two molecules in each of the latter digits, ideally three, then in discovering that pattern, the remaining putatives sharing that digit may prove especially easy discoveries. We just need to discover that link.

While I'm convinced that there is a pattern to the final numeric digit of the putatives, I don't believe there is any pattern to the former remaining digits. I could be wrong on that point, however. As this thread is not primarily about decoding the putatives, I will say no more on that experiment.

While there are a number of arguments for bringing Chris back, there are a number of downsides that should be mentioned. First off, Chris is erratic - not in his intentions, but in his actions or at the very least in the expression of those actions. I've spoken with him a few times, and I do at least feel that he has good intentions. The importance is in the way he comes off when expressing those intentions. He's one of the few vendors out there who does not seem primarily concerned with making money. His business suffers for it, yes, but I can respect the philosophy.

The second argument could be said to be in his relevance - it's quite probable that thundr would be equally if not better-suited for the task of running a blind molecule testing program, but I don't feel the two are mutually exclusive. Mike of Apex and Chris of Alpha Dream have two very different philosophies when it comes to pheromones. Both have their merit, both can drastically speed up innovation in the pheromone world.

Disclaimer: I'm not meaning to start up some rumor that thundr is running a blind molecule testing program, or even that he would consider the idea. All I'm saying is that, with the combination of his forum presence and his general knowledge of single molecules, he's more than up to the task, and beyond Chris and thundr, I can say that for no other vendor.

What I'm suggesting, and Chris himself has agreed to this idea, is restricted access to the forums for Chris. This would potentially include the ability to post once again in his own section, to post in his blind molecule testing section, and, I'd argue, to post in the Single Molecules section. As with the final decision itself, the terms of that decision are for Mark to decide. I'm just throwing ideas out here.

There is no excuse for Chris' past behavior, and the following is not intended as such, but I'll mention it regardless: I feel that Chris' actions are more due to personal circumstances and excessive exposure to Androstadienone than anything. Those personal circumstances are his business and his alone, but as to the second theory, I've experienced it myself at personal doses, let alone the massive doses Chris must be inhaling on a daily basis! Androstadienone exposure can make an individual especially erratic - it's like you're fighting those depression self-effects, but rather than being able to overcome Androstadienone depression, the depression takes on a number of different forms, transmuting itself into other negative emotions. Androstadienone does not lend itself to compulsion, but the tendency to want to act out those negative emotions can be quite strong. If Chris' behavior can be primarily if not exclusively pinned down to the combination of these two factors, then it would be unfair not to allow him back on these boards in some form.

For reference's sake, I'll post relevant bits of our interaction below. These are all from Chris, and they are left as is:

"Blind molecule testing is something I would enjoy pursuing again: there are a few compounds which I have in mind which I think could be valuable pheromone candidates. However at this time I simply don't have the outlet necessary to conduct these tests. Mark banned me from PheroTruth for speaking out against companies that were using Methoxyestratetraenone and other ingredients which I thought could be harmful to people's health. Mark believes I was only out to hurt other companies and make myself look good, but that is honestly not what I was trying to do. No amount of talking to him could change his mind. He demanded I apologize and admit I was trying to hurt the reputation of other companies to make myself look good. Since that was not what I was doing, I refused to apologize and admit to something which was false. He became infuriated and banned me."

I'll comment on this, since I was actually around when this occurred. Once again you can see here that Chris' intentions are good (at the very least, his expressed intentions), but Mark naturally sees what it looks like: a vendor trying to put down another vendor to make himself look good, and for the sake of sales. In this case, PheromoneXS and I want to say True Pheromones, Love-Scent (Impi, specifically), and Apex (Phalanx at the time) were amongst the companies Chris criticized, or implied criticism towards.

While it may have looked like Chris was putting down other companies for the sake of improving sales within his own company, this is not at all consistent with his character. Chris is a very conservative guy when it comes to pheromones (arguably with the exception of Androstadienone ) - he's genuinely concerned for the health and safety of his customers, and while I felt his argument for Methoxyestratetraenone was ill-founded, his intentions were apparent to me right from the start. He was not attempting to rep his company, despite what Mark may have believed at the time. Rather, he was expressing his conservative views as best he could. Chris believed that the use of Methoxyestratetraenone in certain vendors' mixes posed a significant health risk to customers, and he expressed that as best he could. I do not believe he was in the best state of mind to express what he was really trying to say, however.

Having said all that, I do believe Mark made the right call at the time. I won't question his decision for what it was worth back then, and if I'm perfectly honest, he's probably the only administrator along with idk over at Pago's forum whose judgement I trust wholeheartedly. I don't always agree with him, but his judgement is sound. Regardless, I think he needs to move on from this grudge he seems to have against Chris, well-founded as it may be. What Chris can contribute to the forum far outweighs his flaws, and those flaws will have little room to express themselves with the limited access I'm suggesting here.

"The only way that I would (or could) get back into blind molecule testing and help contribute to pheromone science was if Mark would allow me limited access to get on PheroTruth again. The only way that would ever happen is if someone were to start a petition asking for mark to allow me limited access to posting on the forum: such as in the research section as well as the Alpha Dream section.

If a petition were started, and enough members wanted me back, mark might allow me access and I would join the forum again. It's not really that big of a deal to me either way. I don't need the forum, and in some ways I'm a lot happier without the forums, however if I were allowed the opportunity to conduct more research I would take up on the opportunity - and whatever discoveries were made would be in the public domain: compounds which were discovered would not be patented by me in other words, and phero enthusiasts, as well as other companies would be free to include the compounds in their own products; so the research would benefit everyone in the end.

So if you want to help get the blind molecule tests going again, I would suggest talking to some friends on PheroTruth and get a petition going. As I said it don't care either way whether I'm allowed back on Mark's forum. However if I were allowed back on I would continue my work with researching pheromone analogues with structure-activity-relationship theories."

This needs no explanation. This is precisely what I'm doing right now.

"I am very conservative when it comes to things which push the envelope on health. Ultimately, that is why I was banned from PT.

As far as the blind molecule tests go, I guess this all hinges on Mark's cooperation."

As I mentioned earlier, Chris can be a very conservative guy when it comes to molecules he believes may compromise the health of his customers. I don't always agree with his views here - for example, I think Androstadienone in general is far more damaging than Methoxyestratetraenone or one of the Androstadienone alternatives I suggested to him, (thundr knows which one I'm referring to) but he'll do what he thinks is best for his company.

That last line deserves special emphasis. Regardless of where this thread goes, that final decision will rest on Mark. One way or another, it's up to him what happens. I know he'll make the right call, whatever that may be.

"You have my word that I will be completely neutral on the forum. The only thing I will be discussing is research on pheromone related science (chemical compounds, structure activity relationships, ideas, theories, etc.) and will only respond to questions in my own alpha dream section only relating to my products.

If I get back in I won't spend a lot of time on the forum, since business is extremely good for us right now, and there is too much work to do for me to spend a lot of time on the forum either way.

Since pheromone chemistry is a passion for me, that's the only reason I will spend time on the forum at all, plus to answer questions from customers about my products which they raise In the "alpha dream" section - in that area I will keep it simple and basic. No promotions, no glorifying my products etc., just there to answer questions when asked and nothing else.

My involvement in the forum will be limited to only those two topics. I don't have the time or the energy to get involved with anything else, anyway. I don't particularly like forums anymore in lieu of my experience with them. I don't want to be a rock star, i want as little attention as possible honestly. I have a busy day and have limited amount of free time, which I hold dear. So I don't want people to expect me to put in a lot of time. I will work at my own, sometimes slow pace.

I'm almost reluctant to even get involved again the first place. But if mark gives his blessing, and if the forum wants me to come back, then I will.

Again, it's really no big deal either way. I'm happier since being away from all the forums, I'm making more profit than ever, so my passion for research is the ONLY thing that would drive me back to participate again. If Mark says no, I'll honestly be a bit relieved. It's completely up to him and to other forum members.

The last thing I want is to get Mark pissed off again (which he may become if a petition were to be started), if he thinks I'm desperately trying to worm my way back in (Not the case at all!!) for fear he might remove the Alpha Dream section entirely. So make it clear its his choice, I'm fine either way, I'm not trying to get back on his forum by forcing the issue. If he is happier with me gone than I'll stay gone, because I'm honestly happier as well, with not being involved at all."

This was Chris' response to my own terms on his returning to the forum. I mentioned how his erratic behavior has been problematic in the past, and that while his intentions were good, intentions are rarely what others see. He needs to pay more attention to how he expresses those intentions to avoid coming off the wrong way to others. Like Chris, I have Asperger's and I know exactly what it's like. Coming off the right way to others isn't exactly our strong suit - and frankly, Chris is no different. Our intentions rarely appear to reflect our actions. I doubt Chris meant to come off the way he did when he got banned. I doubt he came off that way other times, where he was suspicious of others. Asperger's tends to make us naturally distrusting of others - it's never anything personal.

Despite my misgivings regarding Chris in the past, I believe him. I believe he'll try his best to behave properly on the forums this time around, but whether his actions will now reflect his intentions remains to be seen. I'll give him a thumbs up, and I for one believe he deserves another chance. For those of you who wish to support Chris' return, feel free to express your interest in this thread. For those who have misgivings (I've already mentioned mine above), express those as well. This topic is intended to discuss the issue, and as a petition to hopefully bring Chris back to the forums.

Mark, I already know your stance on this issue, but if any of this has you reconsidering, let me know. Otherwise, I'd still like to hear your thoughts on this matter.

Sincerely,
Ekscentra

I'll edit this post periodically to list the supporters below:

[Username]

Post: #2

I'm going to have to remain neutral. I'm new to the community, but knowing what I know, it appears that he's helped the community but also tried to hurt it.

Post: #3

(08-22-2015 2:45 PM)NP17 Wrote:  I'm going to have to remain neutral. I'm new to the community, but knowing what I know, it appears that he's helped the community but also tried to hurt it.

That would be a wise decision.

I'd say Chris has ultimately ended up hurting the community, but his intentions were always to help it. Whether that's important to you is for you to decide.

Still, his blind molecule testing program helped expand our knowledge of single molecules more than anything else I can think of. Few vendors have openly contributed knowledge about single molecules on the same level as Chris. I'd argue that no vendor has done so, but thundr is getting up there. The level of impact vendor participation on forums has for this community is enormous, and I don't think many of the members here (especially the newer ones) have recognized this yet.

Post: #4

Not a fucking chance!!! Chris piled up more warnings than every other member, COMBINED!

Ekscentra, you were only a member here for 3 months when Chris got banned and you did NOT see all the shit he caused over the previous 3 years, even after promising time and time again to knock it off only to go right back to the same crap within a week or two!

His "Blind Testing" amounted to him sending out molecules to members then expecting me to do EVERYTHING ELSE!

He is the only member to ever have posted and get me threatened with a lawsuit, then when I told him about it he insisted that I not delete the post. However, once he found out that he was responsible for what he posted and his neck was on the line he immediately deleted the post himself!

The last time the forum was attacked strangely enough he knew about it and texted me saying the forum was down at least 5 minutes before the attack actually started, followed up immediately with another text telling me to go ahead and ban him, and coincidentally enough a few minutes later the forum comes under attack and actually did go down.

In the more than 3 years that he was a member I'd bet there was never a week that went by that I didn't wake up to find 1 or more wild rants he'd posted in the middle of the night.

He publicly accused and named another member for shutting down his single molecule sales, knowing that the member did nothing.

He repeatedly attacked other vendors and attempted to harm and/or discredit them. He posted in other vendors forums and in the New Member Introduction forum. Each of which vendors are specifically prohibited from doing.

He attacked other members, repeatedly.

We have had almost no drama whatsoever since he got his ass banned, and any member that's been around for more than 2 years would probably agree that we never went more than a month or so without some sort of major drama when he was around.

Chris had chance after chance after chance after chance after chance after chance and on and on, and I wouldn't give a fuck if he grew wings and sported a halo he's not getting another chance.

It literally got to the point that I dreaded logging into the forum each morning to see what kind of trouble he might have caused and what new hell awaited me.

I don't care how many people want to jump in agreeing that Chris should come back. I would sooner shut the goddamn forum down before I'd ever let his ass come back!

Post: #5

I realize I don't have that many posts to date or much weight to throw around on this particular forum as I dropped out of forums all together when things started turning nuts over at pherotalk 5 or 6 years ago. However, I am still in favor of progressive experimentation.

Not having any history or knowledge of this particular gentleman my feeling is that he should be brought back in to further the hobby. Personality issues aside (again, I am not familiar with his post nor have I actively sought them out at this point) I still feel that all councils of merit have a few seats set aside for the mad genius.

Post: #6

Disregard my original post. I did not realize things were that hectic while he was a member here

Post: #7

If you look at his history, it's very clear how this would play out if Chris came back.

He would sabotage this situation, as he does with everything else involving Alpha Dream, and be banned yet again.

Chris made his decision, now he must live with it.

Also, Chris has not made any attempt to rectify the issues that AD has regarding customer service, not to mention the whole Hedione fiasco, which he only did as a reaction to forum member's complaints.

Chris is drama until he shows us otherwise.

Post: #8

I remember Chris being banned and frankly I was shocked. He has great products and knows what he's doing and he listens to his customers. But I guess his antics were a little much. Rules are rules and we all have to follow them.

I personally wouldn't mind seeing him come back, but as with anything in life, don't burn bridges.

Post: #9

Don't know what went on, but sounds like a knowledgeable guy, Chris.

But then there has to be some sort of protocol as well. How would mark in dallas look reversing a decision?

I can respect a guy who stands by his decision. And I'm not sure Chris will make OR break pherotruth... with all do respect to everyone.

Post: #10

I'll start by saying I like AD's products, but if you're constantly starting trouble in trying to discredit other members products you shouldn't be allowed to post. I remember a post where he was claiming that other companies were using dangerous chemicals but provided no evidence