Post: #1

Linked from
Sniffing out the truth (New Scientist Opinion)
My colleague, Richard L. Doty provides a synopsis of his book "The Great Pheromone Myth." With 20 comments posted, including mine, no one seems to agree with his take on this topic. He may be left defenseless, unless someone can help. Does anyone else think that mammalian pheromones are a "myth"? Comments may still be open. Here's mine:

Knowing the truth when we see it:
Minimally, using Doty's logic, we must wait until someone details which combination of visual cues affects what part of the brain that links the stimuli to the elicited behavior. If not, how can we say we are visually attracted to the visually appealing physical features of other people when we don't know what features elicit our response or how they elicit any endocrine or behavioral response?


James V. Kohl

Post: #2

Wow.

He's saying mammals are not part of nature's pheromone process? (Rather than merely excluding humans?)

He is unique among the pheromone skeptics. Yes?

I'm self conscious getting into debates with you Mensa types so I don't think I'll be posting directly to him on your site, but as for me, the evidence of my experience indicates that pheromones are no myth for THIS mammal.

Not even mentioning some of the amazing results I've had with p'mone products, I had noticed long before I ever even experimented with them the irony that my attraction factor skyrockets at dance clubs once I had worked up a good sweat on the dance floor. The more I sweat, the more I attract.

Post: #3

(03-09-2010 11:10 PM)cosmomac Wrote:  He's saying mammals are not part of nature's pheromone process? (Rather than merely excluding humans?)

He is unique among the pheromone skeptics. Yes?

He may be going too far just to make a lesser point, but it seems that he's serious about excluding all mammals. Why not all vertebrates? There's not much sense in drawing a line by definition when --as you indicate-- chemical communication is nature's way.

(03-09-2010 11:10 PM)cosmomac Wrote:  I'm self conscious getting into debates with you Mensa types so I don't think I'll be posting directly to him on your site, but as for me, the evidence of my experience indicates that pheromones are no myth for THIS mammal.

Dr. Doty's expertise is going to intimidate many people who are not likely to challenge him because of his academic standing. Besides that, he's a very like-able guy. I expect we may see him on some talk shows, where he may better explain his thoughts. He is, after all, going against the opinion and expertise of many of his colleagues. One need only read the recent review by Wysocki and Preti to further question what Doty's up to.



James V. Kohl

Post: #4

(03-10-2010 1:00 AM)jvkohl Wrote:  He may be going too far just to make a lesser point, but it seems that he's serious about excluding all mammals. Why not all vertebrates? There's not much sense in drawing a line by definition when --as you indicate-- chemical communication is nature's way.

(03-09-2010 11:10 PM)cosmomac Wrote:  I'm self conscious getting into debates with you Mensa types so I don't think I'll be posting directly to him on your site, but as for me, the evidence of my experience indicates that pheromones are no myth for THIS mammal.

Dr. Doty's expertise is going to intimidate many people who are not likely to challenge him because of his academic standing. Besides that, he's a very like-able guy. I expect we may see him on some talk shows, where he may better explain his thoughts. He is, after all, going against the opinion and expertise of many of his colleagues. One need only read the recent review by Wysocki and Preti to further question what Doty's up to.



James V. Kohl

I haven't read the posts in question as of yet, but I will say this... #1 I believe I have irrefutable proof that human pheromones are NOT a myth. and #2 expertise comes from more than just books and schooling... And if I do say so myself, I've been described as a very intelligent person who loves a great debate.
I'll be checking out the posts later and will indeed post my views.

Post: #5

(03-10-2010 10:30 AM)PapaWolf Wrote:  I haven't read the posts in question as of yet, but I will say this... #1 I believe I have irrefutable proof that human pheromones are NOT a myth. and #2 expertise comes from more than just books and schooling... And if I do say so myself, I've been described as a very intelligent person who loves a great debate.
I'll be checking out the posts later and will indeed post my views.

I look forward to hearing your views. Comments may still be open at the newscientist site, but if not I will try to ensure they remain open on my site.

James V. Kohl

Post: #6

(03-10-2010 10:42 AM)jvkohl Wrote:  I look forward to hearing your views. Comments may still be open at the newscientist site, but if not I will try to ensure they remain open on my site.

James V. Kohl

I just made my post t the newscientist site. It seemed to go through but doesn't show up yet... do they moderate posts before allowing them to appear?

Here is a copy of my post:

Quote:Mr. Doty's article claims "Another problem with the pheromone concept is that it forces complex behaviours and stimuli into two categories - pheromonal and non-pheromonal, essentially innate and learned."
Based on the research I have done on pheromones I have seen that the most respected web sites, and proponents of pheromones, do not force complex behaviors into pheromonal and non-pheromonal categories. JV Kohl specifically states on his website
"Marketing claims that guarantee you will get more sex are unscientific and unrealistic. If you are unappealing, human pheromones cannot magically make you appealing. Human pheromones can help because nearly everyone is somewhat appealing, and human pheromones enhance that natural appeal."
What I read into Mr. Kohl's comment is that there are a number of factors that can/will affect an individual's behavior. Pheromones alone can not affect that behavior. There is also another article at that delves into this same theory.
I actually have what I believe to be practical evidence that supports Mr. Kohl's comment. I have a lady friend, I will call her Marie. Marie and I have known each other for going on 19 years now, I am 44 and she is 35. We have been great friends and have a very close connection. Several years ago Marie's husband (ex husband now) violently raped and beat her. Now, of course psychology plays a part in Marie's scenario. However, I have seen first hand the effects of pheromones on her.
Marie and I started a relationship in May 2009. Marie and I had an awesome relationship, very open, honest, and loving. However, knowing of the incident with her ex I knew to be careful when it came to sex. I wanted to try and "coax" Marie back into enjoying sex again. I happened upon an article about pheromones and read up on androstenone. The information I read claimed androstenone can help in making females become sexually attracted to men. I purchased an androstenone product and used it in my efforts. Almost immediately Marie began to act very differently around me when I wore the androstenone product.
I did more research on pheromones and androstenone in particular. I found that androstenone signals high testosterone, sex drive, aggression, and dominance. Quite contrary to the information I received from the seller of the androstenone product. I immediately knew the problem once I learned more. I knew the signals Marie was getting from the androstenone were most likely causing her to now associate me with her ex and his actions.
I decided to test my theory. There is only one other male friend of ours that Marie trusts as much as she does me and is as comfortable around as she is with me. I'll call him Edward. One night at a dinner party I got Edward to try a new "cologne" I said I purchased which was actually the androstenone product. I refrained from wearing it. Within 15 minutes of Marie being exposed to Edward and the androstenone Marie became agitated and uncomfortable around Edward. She asked me if we could leave the party early and we did so. She later told me she didn't understand why but she got very nervous about Edward and actually a little scared. She said she felt the same way about me at certain times and specifically mentioned the times I was wearing the androstenone.
I later purchased products that contained Androstenol and Androsterone. The research I did on these two pheromones claimed that they can give a female the feeling that you are a protector, and make women feel comfortable around you. Whenever I used the Androstenol and Androsterone products around Marie she did indeed become even more comfortable with me and commented that she "felt safe with me, like nothing could hurt her". Our relationship did indeed get better and she did indeed become more comfortable with sex with me.
Now I didn't want to rest on just these results so I tested further. I had another friend, I will call Andy, use the Androstenol and Androsterone product a couple of times. Marie normal was pretty uncomfortable around Andy. He is a very sexual and dominant type of male. Marie would never stay in the same room alone with Andy. However, when Andy was wearing the Androstenol and Androsterone Marie became more comfortable with him and would even stay in the same room talking with him alone. I ran this test with other males Marie felt uncomfortable with and obtained the same results. I even did a test where I sprayed Marie's cousin who is also her best friend (I'll call her Karen) with androstenone and saw Marie become very uncomfortable around Karen.
Marie does not know of my use of pheromones to this day, nor the tests I ran. In my opinion this is practical evidence that pheromones not only exist, but do indeed work. However, I do concede that there are unscrupulous individuals out there just looking to make a buck who do not fully understand the complexities of pheromones. In the same token though, there are indeed those out there who have done the research and understand these complexities. I feel Mr. Kohl and and Garry Nelson from are very reputable and have done the research and legitimately understand pheromones and their complex nature.

I couldn't find the location to post at your site though JV. Could you provide a link and I will do so if you would like.

Post: #7

To comment on my site, click on the post title and you will be taken to a section where you can leave a reply. When appropriate, I will approve your reply so that others may see it.

My comments to the newscientist site were added immediately. You may want to try again because your comment has not been posted. Your results with the androsterone/androstenol mix are consistent with those from unpublished studies done by a student researcher under the professorship of a colleague who is interested in the accurate portrayal of cause and effect. Dr. Doty had the opportunity to review these findings with me on two different occasions, but for whatever reason, did not seem to know anything about them. Sometimes that's best, since book author's may need to limit their information so that the book can go to press. The downside is that you may miss something very timely and important to your perspective. On the other hand, he does not mention me in his book, which may simply mean that he has no quarrel with my representations on the topic. As you indicated, it would be difficult for him to argue against anything I have said in this regard.

Thanks,

JVK

(03-10-2010 12:37 PM)PapaWolf Wrote:  I just made my post t the newscientist site. It seemed to go through but doesn't show up yet... do they moderate posts before allowing them to appear?

Here is a copy of my post:

Quote:Mr. Doty's article claims "Another problem with the pheromone concept is that it forces complex behaviours and stimuli into two categories - pheromonal and non-pheromonal, essentially innate and learned."
Based on the research I have done on pheromones I have seen that the most respected web sites, and proponents of pheromones, do not force complex behaviors into pheromonal and non-pheromonal categories. JV Kohl specifically states on his website
"Marketing claims that guarantee you will get more sex are unscientific and unrealistic. If you are unappealing, human pheromones cannot magically make you appealing. Human pheromones can help because nearly everyone is somewhat appealing, and human pheromones enhance that natural appeal."
What I read into Mr. Kohl's comment is that there are a number of factors that can/will affect an individual's behavior. Pheromones alone can not affect that behavior. There is also another article at that delves into this same theory.
I actually have what I believe to be practical evidence that supports Mr. Kohl's comment. I have a lady friend, I will call her Marie. Marie and I have known each other for going on 19 years now, I am 44 and she is 35. We have been great friends and have a very close connection. Several years ago Marie's husband (ex husband now) violently raped and beat her. Now, of course psychology plays a part in Marie's scenario. However, I have seen first hand the effects of pheromones on her.
Marie and I started a relationship in May 2009. Marie and I had an awesome relationship, very open, honest, and loving. However, knowing of the incident with her ex I knew to be careful when it came to sex. I wanted to try and "coax" Marie back into enjoying sex again. I happened upon an article about pheromones and read up on androstenone. The information I read claimed androstenone can help in making females become sexually attracted to men. I purchased an androstenone product and used it in my efforts. Almost immediately Marie began to act very differently around me when I wore the androstenone product.
I did more research on pheromones and androstenone in particular. I found that androstenone signals high testosterone, sex drive, aggression, and dominance. Quite contrary to the information I received from the seller of the androstenone product. I immediately knew the problem once I learned more. I knew the signals Marie was getting from the androstenone were most likely causing her to now associate me with her ex and his actions.
I decided to test my theory. There is only one other male friend of ours that Marie trusts as much as she does me and is as comfortable around as she is with me. I'll call him Edward. One night at a dinner party I got Edward to try a new "cologne" I said I purchased which was actually the androstenone product. I refrained from wearing it. Within 15 minutes of Marie being exposed to Edward and the androstenone Marie became agitated and uncomfortable around Edward. She asked me if we could leave the party early and we did so. She later told me she didn't understand why but she got very nervous about Edward and actually a little scared. She said she felt the same way about me at certain times and specifically mentioned the times I was wearing the androstenone.
I later purchased products that contained Androstenol and Androsterone. The research I did on these two pheromones claimed that they can give a female the feeling that you are a protector, and make women feel comfortable around you. Whenever I used the Androstenol and Androsterone products around Marie she did indeed become even more comfortable with me and commented that she "felt safe with me, like nothing could hurt her". Our relationship did indeed get better and she did indeed become more comfortable with sex with me.
Now I didn't want to rest on just these results so I tested further. I had another friend, I will call Andy, use the Androstenol and Androsterone product a couple of times. Marie normal was pretty uncomfortable around Andy. He is a very sexual and dominant type of male. Marie would never stay in the same room alone with Andy. However, when Andy was wearing the Androstenol and Androsterone Marie became more comfortable with him and would even stay in the same room talking with him alone. I ran this test with other males Marie felt uncomfortable with and obtained the same results. I even did a test where I sprayed Marie's cousin who is also her best friend (I'll call her Karen) with androstenone and saw Marie become very uncomfortable around Karen.
Marie does not know of my use of pheromones to this day, nor the tests I ran. In my opinion this is practical evidence that pheromones not only exist, but do indeed work. However, I do concede that there are unscrupulous individuals out there just looking to make a buck who do not fully understand the complexities of pheromones. In the same token though, there are indeed those out there who have done the research and understand these complexities. I feel Mr. Kohl and and Garry Nelson from are very reputable and have done the research and legitimately understand pheromones and their complex nature.

I couldn't find the location to post at your site though JV. Could you provide a link and I will do so if you would like.

Post: #8

(03-10-2010 2:17 PM)jvkohl Wrote:  To comment on my site, click on the post title and you will be taken to a section where you can leave a reply. When appropriate, I will approve your reply so that others may see it.

My comments to the newscientist site were added immediately. You may want to try again because your comment has not been posted. Your results with the androsterone/androstenol mix are consistent with those from unpublished studies done by a student researcher under the professorship of a colleague who is interested in the accurate portrayal of cause and effect. Dr. Doty had the opportunity to review these findings with me on two different occasions, but for whatever reason, did not seem to know anything about them. Sometimes that's best, since book author's may need to limit their information so that the book can go to press. The downside is that you may miss something very timely and important to your perspective. On the other hand, he does not mention me in his book, which may simply mean that he has no quarrel with my representations on the topic. As you indicated, it would be difficult for him to argue against anything I have said in this regard.

Thanks,

JVK

No problem at all JV. I was actually skeptical about pheromones when I first started looking into them. But the more I have tested them the more I have been pleasantly surprised by the results. And my lady friend, in my opinion, is a perfect case study for their effects.
I'll add my post to your site now.

Post: #9

Thanks, I approved the add, but you need to click on the title bar to see it.

JVK

(03-10-2010 3:38 PM)PapaWolf Wrote:  No problem at all JV. I was actually skeptical about pheromones when I first started looking into them. But the more I have tested them the more I have been pleasantly surprised by the results. And my lady friend, in my opinion, is a perfect case study for their effects.
I'll add my post to your site now.

Post: #10

Well Dr. Doty lost me when he purported that no mammalian response to pheromones exist - or more accurately that no pheromones are produced by mammals.

What then is the purpose of the flehmen response?
In fact, young stallions who are being trained exclusively to use a model mount for collection (it's safer and more sanitary than letting a priceless stallion be exposed to a mare) are trained by rubbing urine from an estrus mare on the mount. They will flehmen and mount the model. Because the urine contains a chemical messenger: dare I call it a pheromone? It is rec'd by the VNO, which is termed Jacobson's organ in horses, and opens into the palate, rather than the nasal cavity. Hence the flehmen response: curling the lip and pulling air in over the palate.

Now that in no way supports human pheromonal activity, but it does say Dr. Doty went a little far with his refutation.