Post: #11

I read on many other webpages, and mixed together here paraphrasing,

Cortisol levels are raised in women after exposure to Androstadienone .

Cortisol is the enemy of Testosterone - from a bodybuilding hormone blog
Testosterone is a natural antidepressant - somewhere on the web

Testosterone is an Aphrodisiac in women. Proven, - real clinical studies on web

the clinical trials with Androstadienone (Androstadienone) showed depression as a side effect in the placebo group, not the Androstadienone test group - here or other phero blog.

perhaps an continued (multiple days) overdose of Androstadienone would raise cortisol levels to a point where endogenous testosterone levels are lowered and a testosterone drop causes a depressed mood. it wouldn't be clinical depression, as removing the Androstadienone could allow recovery, if it did actually cause the drop. But I'm not saying it does cause a drop.

more to come, perhaps

Post: #12

Interesting, I'd seen multiple posts in the past of a hangover-effect from steady dienol usage that were depressive in nature, and I think I've experienced similar - just wanting to stay home and be alone, antisocial, inwardly focused and generally feeling lame all around. Could have just been a man-period too, who knows... But after realizing a few times that I was in a funk I'd go phero-free for three days to a week and would recoup quickly. Everything I dose typically had a dienone topper during those experiments as I recall.

Post: #13

(08-28-2012 10:10 PM)2Soon2Care Wrote:  Interesting, I'd seen multiple posts in the past of a hangover-effect from steady dienol usage that were depressive in nature, and I think I've experienced similar - just wanting to stay home and be alone, antisocial, inwardly focused and generally feeling lame all around. Could have just been a man-period too, who knows... But after realizing a few times that I was in a funk I'd go phero-free for three days to a week and would recoup quickly. Everything I dose typically had a dienone topper during those experiments as I recall.

I think I may have done it too, but not sure.
I take lots of vitamins, and I notice when I don't take them, I get the man-period-moodiness.

I take the following that are supposed to increase endogenous testosterone:

DHEA
pregnenolone
fenugreek
tribulus terestis
anaxanthin

i didn't list the others that aren't as directly related.

So I think there may be a correlation with testosterone levels in my body and the man-period-moodiness.

Androstadienone may cause the drop, nutrition may cause the drop, other pheromones my help cause the drop. So much could influence it, and I have not read any clinical studies about Androstadienone /testosterone to base my guesses on yet.

since Androstadienone is such a prevalent hormone/steroid on male skin, we pump it out in huge quantities compared to others like NONE/Androsterone/NOL, it doesn't make sense that smelling yourself would make you depressed. It may be part of a feedback loop where your body knows to stop making certain hormones based on a feedback control loop, possibly in your nose. If your nose says "SMELLIN WAY TOO MUCH Androstadienone ", it could be a signal to your brain or hypothalimus/pituitary/testicals/liver to slow down the production of the hormone that metabolizes into Androstadienone .

Much like the feedback control loop in a car. You put your foot on the gas pedal, it opens the throttle, more air comes into the engine, your Oxygen sensor in the exhaust says "SMELLIN WAY TOO MUCH OXYGEN". Then your computer tells the fuel injectors to put more fuel into the fuel/air mixture until the Oxygen sensor says "CAN'T SMELL THE OXYGEN", and continually adjusts it.
Perhaps our noses function as a sort of feedback control loop that determines our internal balance. Scarry to play with something that is so delicate that it works on parts per billion or less.

Post: #14

(08-29-2012 5:49 PM)dexter Wrote:  since Androstadienone is such a prevalent hormone/steroid on male skin, we pump it out in huge quantities compared to others like NONE/Androsterone/NOL, it doesn't make sense that smelling yourself would make you depressed. It may be part of a feedback loop where your body knows to stop making certain hormones based on a feedback control loop, possibly in your nose. If your nose says "SMELLIN WAY TOO MUCH Androstadienone ", it could be a signal to your brain or hypothalimus/pituitary/testicals/liver to slow down the production of the hormone that metabolizes into Androstadienone .

+1. Nail on head. I agree with this idea. I've read that males subjected to chronic large doses of none increase their T levels dramatically over that period of time. I remember a hypothesis stating it was due to adaptation of perceived male competition. When the regulation mechanisms in humans detect imbalance, especially in chronic exposure, altered levels are produced to compensate for this change. More Androstadienone on the skin possibly says overabundance and begins a shutdown process of one or more male hormone levels.

Perhaps the body's perception of "too much" or "not enough" has something to do with one or more of test synthesis or conversion. The first step in Test formation involves oxidative cleavage of the sidechain of cholesterol with the loss of six carbon atoms to produce pregnenolone. More blah yada yada. Two additional carbon atoms are removed to a plenty o plethora of C19 steroids. Heres where it gets fun.. the 3-hydroxyl group is oxidized to produce androstenedione. In the final (and rate limiting step btw) the C-17 keto group androstenedione is reduced to yield testosterone. This last step could be governed easily by the body's perception of greater Androstadienone levels which, in turn, limit conversion processes. I think the last redux is by 17 B-HSD so in hypothesis possible high Androstadienone levels could be the alcohol oxidoreductase-limiter that stalls or halts steroid genesis (test). Possibly.

Makes sense.. I think. LOL

Post: #15

Nice thinking, thundr - JV Kohl's research is based around pheromones directly affect gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) in a way that pulse-releases luteinizing hormone (LH). Following that biochemical pathway would most likely lead to some feedback loops that are promoters or supressors of a number of different hormones and I bet the pregnenolone downchain production of testosterone is one of the pathways that is invovled.

There are a number of current scientific research articles by Kohl and others here if interested

(08-29-2012 7:22 PM)thundr Wrote:  +1. Nail on head. I agree with this idea. I've read that males subjected to chronic large doses of none increase their T levels dramatically over that period of time. I remember a hypothesis stating it was due to adaptation of perceived male competition. When the regulation mechanisms in humans detect imbalance, especially in chronic exposure, altered levels are produced to compensate for this change. More Androstadienone on the skin possibly says overabundance and begins a shutdown process of one or more male hormone levels.

Perhaps the body's perception of "too much" or "not enough" has something to do with one or more of test synthesis or conversion. The first step in Test formation involves oxidative cleavage of the sidechain of cholesterol with the loss of six carbon atoms to produce pregnenolone. More blah yada yada. Two additional carbon atoms are removed to a plenty o plethora of C19 steroids. Heres where it gets fun.. the 3-hydroxyl group is oxidized to produce androstenedione. In the final (and rate limiting step btw) the C-17 keto group androstenedione is reduced to yield testosterone. This last step could be governed easily by the body's perception of greater Androstadienone levels which, in turn, limit conversion processes. I think the last redux is by 17 B-HSD so in hypothesis possible high Androstadienone levels could be the alcohol oxidoreductase-limiter that stalls or halts steroid genesis (test). Possibly.

Makes sense.. I think. LOL

Post: #16

Speaking of LH manipulation, I had a thought a few weeks back when I read about atrione being speculated in high amounts in AV in (IDKs journal) It kinda conforms to what we are talking about here atm.
Atrione was marketed awhile back as 6OXO. It was a bodybuilding supplement I used to take back when 1-test and 4AD were legal. Personally I didnt get jack from 6OXO and it sounds better on paper than it actually works. See, the thing about hormone manipulation is you can only trick the body for so long until it figures shit out and overcompensates. Par example:

On Paper:
Atrione, when ingested, was reported to alter testosterone-estrogen ratio via aromatase inhibition. This decreased free circulating estradiol which signaled an increase in LH. This signaled more test synthesis and so forth.
What it really did:
Atrione inhibited aromatase yes. But as soon a the body recognized the imbalance (test:est ratios), overproduction of aromatase was produced with a firehose effect. So you got a short test boost but as soon as the product was ceased, massive amounts of aromatase was left circulating thus shitting on the body's natural test levels. Now the body must recognize the imbalance yet again and another signal was released to lower aromatase. Its a nasty game of hormonal push/pull that leaves your body confused and unbalanced for a period of time. Sure one can add more supps as a form of PCT from a cycle of anything but unless the body is allowed to normalize, the game continues. Maybe thats why we need occasional mone breaks as well. Idk.

Ok, enough of all that. My point is that could be why AV has such a self effect. Pago remarked about it giving him iron bone after running AV tests. Makes sense in a way. Even mcg quants of atrione intranasally may alter/lower aromatase levels to a degree that LH is briefly stimulated and test increases. Hence the iron.

This all transfers over to what we have been talking about concerning feedback mechanisms. Our bodies are sensitive to balance and adding or removing something seems unnatural to us and elicits effect. Perhaps some of these are positive effect (AV) and maybe some may be negative (Androstadienone depression).

Just thinking a bit outside the box on this one. Purely speculation that Im making a few slightly-intelligent guesstimates.

Post: #17

It can be a viscious cycle, perhaps a downward spiral, but....

The amount of mones we use can be very tricky. You need enough to have it diffuse, and last for X hours, but not too much.

I read in a blog on transdermal medication that DHEA and Pregnenolone supplements were much more efficient in transdermal absorption thru the skin with Phlojel as the solution than when orally injested. This made me wonder how good ETOH and DPG are as transdermal solutions. We can get a much higher self effect from some (maybe not all, but some) molecules from a dual pathway of inhale and transdermal if we apply to the skin.

It also made me think we could test out the ingredients of undisclosed pheromone ingredients by mixing them with Phlogel and taking a pee test to see what is the change in blood serum/urine concentrations. Maybe cheaper than other methods.

--------
Complications with feedback loops could be huge. As we all know, science doesn't have it down yet. As it turns out, science is the process of a scientist looking to find new science that proves older science wrong. If older science wasn't wrong, or incomplete, we wouldn't have these scientific questions.

One molecule as simple as a copulin fatty acid can cause reactions in men and women. That reaction, somewhere down the line creates an increase in testosterone levels in the blood. This acts as a aphrodisiac. But the copulins don't make the testosterone, they just make a signal, then multiple chemical reactions which have multiple branching paths occur. One of the products is testosterone increase, but lets say there were 4 steps, and each step had 2 products, that is 8 products total thru this one path, of the other 7 products that aren't testosterone 3 of them can turn into T or something else, 4 of them don't turn into T, these 7 metabolites go thru the body and have effects that may be on a different timeline as the effects of the increased T.

Now lets say this same thing represents in some degree all pheromone processes, (except for the smell of CA$H) they can be more complicated or less complicated, and will have products and byproducts whose immediate responses and the resulting winding down responses are hormone levels and ratios. You may need to consider using them in low levels to reduce the long term effects, or combining with other mones to reduce some of the effects, but there will always be effects. The human body will compensate for some of them, others may be marginal, but these "SIDE EFFECTS" can be unknown because they come into place later, while sleeping, the next day , when you are wearing other 'mones and blaming the 3 day later side effect on the current 'mones instead of the ones you wore 3 days ago.

Like I said, it could be complicated. Maybe wearing COPS with Androstadienone could do some counter balancing.

Post: #18

Blah blah blah blah momentary sensical statement blah blah blah blah something that made sense blah blah blah blah

Wow - It's like a Peanuts special and the Teacher is speaking....go on.



I'm teasing - some of it did make sense, I do enjoy trying to puzzle it out, and I'm just teasing.

---

NO REALLY - I am seriously just teasing.

Post: #19

I can decode some of that for you.

In men, there is this enzyme called Aromatase that is found all over the body. This enzyme is responsible for the conversion of Androgens (main Testosterone) to Estrogen (Mainly Estradiol). Too much estrogen is no good but as a guy, having little to no aromatase is also very bad (Your body makes an excess amount of it when you have a head injury/trauma).

What thunder pointed out about Androstenetrione and it's affect on men makes sense as J.V. Kohl also noted, Androstenols and Androsterone has some effect on women's mood, behaviour, and internally, the levels of Lutenizing Hormones she makes.

Post: #20

(08-30-2012 4:05 PM)Shelly B Wrote:  Blah blah blah blah momentary sensical statement blah blah blah blah something that made sense blah blah blah blah

Wow - It's like a Peanuts special and the Teacher is speaking....go on.



I'm teasing - some of it did make sense, I do enjoy trying to puzzle it out, and I'm just teasing.

---

NO REALLY - I am seriously just teasing.

Lmao. You're a mess. Seriously though, I want to bang the hell outta "wah wah wah" teacher lady. See what other sounds I can get her to make. I havent shifted into nerd mode here in quite a while, figured it was past due for a hot minute or two..

Great explanation 0685.